“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” - Edmund Burke
Paul E. Marek is a second-generation Canadian, whose grandparents fled Czechoslovakia just prior to the Nazi takeover. He wrote the following article in February of 2006.
Why The Peaceful Majority Is Irrelevant
By Paul E. MarekI used to know a man whose family were German aristocracy prior to World War Two. They owned a number of large industries and estates. I asked him how many German people were true Nazis, and the answer he gave has stuck with me and guided my attitude toward fanaticism ever since.
“Very few people were true Nazis” he said, “but, many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.”
We are told again and again by “experts” and “talking heads” that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unquantified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is, that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars world wide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is, that the “peaceful majority” is the “silent majority” and it is cowed and extraneous.
Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people. The Average Japanese individual prior to World War 2 was not a war mongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of Killing that included the systematic killing of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were “peace loving”.
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by the fanatics. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awake one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun. Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Bosnians, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others, have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Update: I originally posted a text purported to be by Emanuel Tanay, but one of my readers pointed out that the original source was Paul E. Marek. I decided to replace the entire article and credit it to the correct author.
34 Comments
Yikes… You have the most thought-provoking blog. Every post! (I know I usually just lurk you…) Anyway, do carry on!
A slight correction, Emanuel Tanay is not the author of this post. The original source of this article can be found here:
http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2006/02/why-peaceful-majority-is-irrelevant.html
It was also picked up by the mainstream media, in two cases at least:
Source 1
Source 2
(Junker: I edited your links because one was so long that it ran into the sidebar. I also replaced the original article with the one that you mentioned. Thanks! - In Repair)
You are completely wrong!
The decisive bit is not what the fanatics do. It is not even, to stay with your analogy, why Britain let this happen in Germany. The decisive bit is why Germans not only let it happen but sympathized. I don’t know what’s the value in saying not many Germans were ‘true’ Nazis, whatever the definition of a true Nazi is. Certainly not every German was a member of the SA, and not all who were will have identified with that altogether. But read a little on the theory of fascism and you will see that such fascist mass effects don’t happen without backing of the masses. The masses may not initially identify with every aspect of it, but it does not succeed if it does not strike a nerve in a way the nourishes some fundamental desire.
With Nazi Germany it was certainly that inferiority complex brought about by the defeat in WW I and a desastrous economy that made people crave for some self-respect. In such a time, the message “You are somebody, you are the best even. It’s not your fault. It’s the fault of … er … the Jews.” was well-received. Surely, not everybody appreciated every consequence of that message, but deep inside it did strike a nerve. It did allow people to free themselves of self-doubt, self-loss, fear of failure, of inferiority by externalizing those fears and projecting them elsewhere outside into enemies that could actually be fought.
So, the point is, it is much more effective than battling fanatics (there will always be crazies) to wonder how we can stop people from rallying to them. How can we stop people from sympathizing with the fanatics enough to keep them aware of the errors of the fanatics’ ways? The question is not “How can the peace-loving Americans stop fanatic muslims?” but “How can we get to a point where peace-loving muslims will stop fanatic muslims?” Much like some more respect might have helped the people of the Weimar Republic, that point will clearly not be reached by keeping on disrespecting the whole of the muslim world. That is just going to make the fanatics’ message of the West as the muslims’ enemy more true.
P. S.: History lessons are never simple and blunt, because life is not simple and blunt. History only becomes simple when used in propaganda! Again, read some theory of fascism (or read Golding’s “Lord of the Flies” for a start) and stop clinging to most Germans actually having been nice chaps. Then don’t stop at believing fascism is some specific German trait. Go to a pub, wait till people have had enough alcohol, listen to them rant about whatever minority is the current fashion, and you will see the same seed of fascism in action. Every single of our human psyches is vulnerable to the underlying psychological mechanisms. And again, the question is why we only hear such rants in pubs, not in politics (hopefully) and how we can keep it that way. How can we keep the majority of people from sympathizing with such pub rants so much that it becomes commonly accepted to think that way? Not quite that simple.
Makes me think about MLK:
“History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.”
“In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”
–Martin Luther King Jr.
@ CuriousC: I’m glad you lurk, but I love it when you comment!
@ Karl: How can I be “completely wrong” when I didn’t even write the article?
@ Nestor: Beautiful and timely words. Thanks for sharing them.
Though I must admit I was to eager to learn what a specificially German point of view on muslims might be (as the original title suggested) to notice, one can also be wrong be reiterating something wrong without comment.
@ Karl: I do agree with the article, for the most part. I take issue with the title, though, since it seems to contradict that the author is saying. The majority has a responsibility to speak out against injustice and demand change - then they can be truly relevant.
I am surprised that Marek wants to discuss fanaticism but omits the far right neo con fanatics in the Bush administration. If he has addressed the genocide going on in Iraq then I apoligize, if not, than I must ask why not? The American media and people at large have not protested this unjust war to cause a change in policy. And what about Central America during the Regan administration? The Iran Contra affair is not something to be proud of, not to speak of the untold thousands who perished. And the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are facing horror because of fanatics in Israel correct?
The Bush administration has assaulted the constitution with its warrantless wiretapping of citizens and political enemies and you want me to fear Muslims or Islam? I fear what has happened to my own country under the Bush crime family who also outed a CIA agent because her husband did not agree with them. They have bankrupted my country, sold it to China and other countries, broken our armies and not secured our borders. Shame on America and its people who have found no voice.
Barbara Beneitone
Beneitone@aol.com
I don’t think the author is arguing with Karl’s point. If anything I think that the author would agree with his comment about the silent peace-loving Muslims need to stand up for themselves before they are labeled. It is not a political statement more then it is a study of human behavior. And how human behavior repeats itself due to fanaticism. And how drawn some are to the fanatic leaders and others are oblivious.
The article seems to bring to the surface the psychological issue that humans by the majority are often oblivious to their world and its problems until its too late. The vast majority are followers and not leaders. The vast majority only do as they are told as the do not wish to offend. They vote with their pack, they celebrate with their pack and are not wanting to run from the pack nor lead it.
It is a lesson in understanding that because of religion, race, skin color, country, tribe, or political party that it does not create a universal label for all of those within that group.
Our culture in America is very myopic. Our culture is very opinionated and open about our ideologies. In many other cultures in this world you are not allowed to possess open opinions. It could cost you your life. Yes, even today.
We have the same issues in tribal warfare in our urban streets only on a smaller scale. We have grown to view it and empathize with the innocent that live there, but how many are really taking an active step to eliminate the problem? Not many. Would you move there? Never. Would you take action? Not until it lands in our back yard. We too are a peaceful majority. Until when?
I did not write the article attributed to me; I have forwarded it to some friends. Someone put my name as the author. I am not German but a Holocaust survivor from Poland. Obviously, I am aware of the danger of fanaticism. My book Passport to Life (Amazon.com) gives some of my reflections on the subject of fanaticism.
The author of the article you are referring to was Paul E. Marek of Saskatoon, Canada. The original Title was Why The Peaceful Majority Is Irrelevant. Paul E. Marek is a second-generation Canadian, whose grandparents fled Czechoslovakia just prior to the Nazi takeover. He wrote it in February of 2006.
See http://inrepair.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/why-the-peaceful-majority-is-irrelevant/
Also http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/6996
Emanuel Tanay
Could I just add the experience of my husband’s family? His grandfather came from Austria to settle in Zlin, CZ, near the Polish border. He and his wife had four sons and two daughters. The Nazis had sent official notices and finally came in person for the blonde, blue-eyed son named Franz, but his mom had sent him to live in the woods. The soldiers held a gun to her head and twisted her arthritic arms until she gasped out that her son was working at the factory down the road. Sure enough, they found her son at the factory, but it was brown-eyed, brown-haired, short Ignatz, and after being roughed up, he was able to produce his ID from his pocket and convince the soldiers that he was not Franz. They stormed back to the house and dragged Grandma Maria out in the yard to kill her while Grandpa plead for her life. Finally my husband’s mother, the eldest daughter, could stand it no longer, and told where Franz was hiding, and the soldiers took him and made him a conscript. He was fortunate to be captured promptly by the Americans and kept in a POW camp, where he said the Americans were kind to him and gave him cigarettes (that was back when this would have been seen as a kindness!) and he did odd jobs and waited to be released. My husband was born after the war and remembers playing in the yard when he saw a tall stranger shuffling down the road, and suddenly his grandma exploded from the front steps, screaming and shouting, “Franz is home!”
Do you think, Karl in #3, that they were sympathetic with the Nazis, or proud that, as citizens of an occupied country, they counted as second class Aryans and their blonde boy ‘got to serve’ in the army? You can blame the complacency of the masses, but when peace-seeking people are terrorized and brutalized, they usually give in and compromise to save their families in the short term. This isn’t agreement, or identification, or approval; it’s an attempt by the powerless to survive. Go along, get along, until the bully wipes you out too.
Muslims aren’t free to have their own opinions, they are not even free to have their own facts! See DISCOVER’s website for a good article on Muslim scientists, who must be careful not to research anything against Allah’s will, who must fit their results into a Koranic framework even if it renders the exercise absurd (numbering the bones in the human body, for instance). The backwardness of their science is blamed on the oppression of the West. In such a climate, how could a “moderate” even truly exist?
Instead of speaking of fanaticism,we should ask, why fanaticism is? Fanaticism is a strong believe in an idea.The case is that in many isntances takes the form of violance. If we are talking of fanatic people, we shouldn’t forget the “peace–loving” fanaticism of the jews, who are killing Palestinians and Lebanes everyday, who are feeding and poisoning the world with the “holocaust-lie”, a good bussiness, an industry. In WV II whole Europe did suffer, not only the jews!!! We are talkinkg of the Nazis, the Soviets, but we forget the Palestinians who are suffering dayly by tens of thousands the jews fanaticism. Many of ous need not to be remembered who wer the Nazies, the Soviets; Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, Churchill, Roosevelt and Truman, but don’t try to make us to forget who wer and are the jews,what they did in the XX-th century and are dooing in the XXI-st. We are talking about the Japones and the Nazies did, but we are silent of the horrors the Americans and the English did in in the Pacific and in Europe. Churchill gave the order to bomb Dresden. When he was informed there was no military forces but only refugees, he did say: “Kill of them as many you can”. My native country was dismembered by France, England & USA; destroid by the Soviets, thanks to the Americans and British, however I hate them not!!! A hate non of them, I hate not Stalin, Roosevelt, Churcill,Hitler, because they are dad long ago. Each of them did what the circumstances dictated; each of them fougth for his country. The “choosen-people”, whose loyalty is not exactly the most proverbial, ought to try not to hate, not everyday and everywher to remember what they suffered. The christians has too what to remember. When the Bolshevik Revolution triunfed the “choosen-people” said: “Now the goim will pay for our tears with their blood”. Who will pay for the tears of the Palestinians? It is time to stop talking about that blatant fanciful fantasy: the jewis holocust, —a blackmail,a very lucrative modern industry. There are many holocaust where hundreds of millons had lost their life. Who will pay for them? It is not the fanaticism we have to fight, dear “choosen–people”, but ourselves, worry about the other’s sufferings. If we vant peace it is not sufficient to proclaim it, it is necessary to practice it. If you will practice the peace, there will be no more fanatics!!! Dear “choosen–people”, try not to-be so “choosen”, because all of us are of the same stock!!!
This was an excellent post In Repair. Thanks for the clarification on the author.
It is a mark of the insularity, not to mention the idiocy, of our culture that someone could read Marek’s article and somehow totally fail to grasp the point while using it to launch a diatribe on the evilness of the current administration! This person would rather mischaracterize the measures taken to keep her safe than focus on the threat that has precipitated these measures in the first place. This propensity to see the United States as the root of all evil is pathetic, short-sighted, and dangerous. No where else in the world could this writer spew such garbage and remain unscathed. She’ll still be railing against Bush and the USA 20 years from now even as she dons her burka and asks permission to leave the house. It’s about the fanatics, stupid!
I do not know my history real well. To what killing of 79 million people by the Chinese Communists is the reference?
Karl and Barbara expressed my doubts about the article far better than I would have been able to and I thank them most deeply for relieving me of the task.
Aunt Wonnie raises the whole new issue of access to information and the extent to which a population may actually know what is going on in its own midst. At daily risk of having an attack of apoplexy, I watch FoxNews on the grounds that that’s where a third or so of the American people gets the news. To get all sides, I also watch BBC, CNN, Antenne 2, France 24, all the Italian channels and Al Jazeera in English (Yes, I’m a news junkie). FNC is generally somewhere out in space and happiest when it has a juicy sex scandal or a high school shutdown to report on ad nauseam. Well, that’s not information and I share Auntie’s preoccupation with the blame-throwing game that targets “others”.
Back to Marek’s article: I received it by email from some very thoughtful friends and (like Barbara) was intrigued by the absence of the USA in that long list of “silent majority”. At the very least, mainstream America failed to react during the McCarthy era when the principle of freedom of speech was seriously compromised for many years. I’ve always been mystified by the ease with which ranting “hatred” can be presented as “opinion”. Barbara’s contribution was poised and a bit polemical but Bennetts was a good example of ranting. Oh yes, Al Jazeera does not seem to be readily available in the USA although many of my friends would like to see what I see in it.
I was relieved to read Dr. Tanay’s message confirming that he’d not writen the article. I’d googled the title and discovered that the same article (indicating Dr. Tanay as the author) was posted on a website that might belong to our own, home-grown brand of fanatics. Try it: the home page is a real hackle-raiser.
It’s easy to recognise somebody else’s fanatics but outsiders have even less chance of influencing them than insiders would (read that as “no chance at all”). I agree with Karl that a bit more respect and tolerance could open the road to dialogue and that dialogue should be based on mutual respect. Hatred and hostility have never - nor ever will lead to anything except war.
Berna
As always we find those trying to make some sort of distorted equalization between history’s true extremist monsters and the Bush administration. As if somehow the rogue soldiers at Abu Ghraid were equal to Hitler’s SS at Dachau. As if Guantanamo somehow parallels Stalin’s gulags. As if the battle for Iraq is akin to Communist China’s brutal occupation and suppression of Tibet.
Reference Joan’s question regarding China, start with the link below. Most of those deaths happened under Mao Zedong. Due to the nature of oppressive regimes like that of Communist China, no one has nailed down a true, accurate figure. That said, we do know that millions died. More than that, it is likely that Mao killed more people than either Hitler or Stalin. That so many people are unaware of this fact is quite a sad statement indeed.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Mao
Karl: Remember Orwell’s Animal Farm
It took me awhile to find this but I am glad I was able to find the true author and it was indeed said but not by Dr. Emanuel Tanay who I just received a email forward with the usual added forward this to blah blah or you are part of the problem. They even included Dr. Emanuel Tanay’s address.
Why people feel I need to tag a known person’s name unto a email to get other people to send it on is beyond me when the original article by Paul E. Marek marit no flower. It stands alone in its self and a peace well worth reading.
Hi to all,
When I was a child and tried to justify something I’d done by saying that others (usually my brothers) had done it, etc. etc. my mother would invariably respond: “That doesn’t make what you did any ‘righter’. There’s no excuse for doing the wrong thing and the fact that others did it before or ‘worser’ doesn’t count.”
Actually, I do feel that unethical behaviour by the USA is a more serious matter because America once (underlined, bold) had a reputation for a feisty willingness to uphold certain fundamental principles. I deeply resent the fact that the current administration has seriously damaged America’s reputation with regard to (for example) rule of democracy, ‘habeas corpus’, and the Geneva convention (which I believe was an idea initiated by the American administration of that time).
They refused to recognise Hamas although the latter had won an election that external observers had recognised as “acceptably” free and fair.
The principle of ‘habeas corpus’ is violated daily at Guantanamo and (I think, probably) at other places run by “friendly governments”.
The Geneva convention was (and is) violated both at Abu Ghraib and at more-or-less secret prisons throughout the world. The current Administration even declared outright that it did not feel itself bound by that convention. Mindboggling.
These are only three examples of how the current administration has undermined the moral authority that the USA used (underlined, bold) to enjoy in the world.
I live in a country where we have easy access to a broad range of information sources (local media, FoxNews, CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera, etc.). People with the interest (and patience) to listen to all sides can really and truly make up their own minds. Over the past eight years, people who used to admire America have been asking: “Why doesn’t the USA practice what it preaches?”. haters of America are delighted, even gloating: “You see? You’re no different!”
The only - very lame answer - I have is that Americans must be scared so witless that they’re willing to renounce to their principles in exchange for protection: they’ve become just like the people of Medieval times who sought protection through serfdom to any lord powerful enough to fight off the others.
Submission and serfdom was the rule until a small band of intelligent rustics in a British colony the other side of the Atlantic decided that times had changed. The British called them “terrorists” because they refused to commit suicide by waging battle according to the rules. Those “terrorists” won the battle (on their own soil) and produced one of the finest documents ever written by humankind, namely the Constitution of the United States of America, a document that’s given inspiration to democracies throughout the world.
It’s sad to see the extent to which the current administration has reneged on the basic principles of that document and the extent to which so many scared-witless Americans are willing to do the same and kowtow to anybody who promises to “keep them safe”.
Berna
PS: I remain dubious about Marek’s article because it focuses on “somebody else’s fanatics”. Some of our own crazies might decide to try to eliminate them, if only to alleviate their fear by “doing something, anything”, whatever. A cornered rabbit can make a pretty dirty fighter.
PPSS: “Sticks and stones can break my bones but names cannot hurt me!” (advance response to the anticipated deluge of hate mail).
To Brian
Just read the section on “100 things about you” and discovered that we have a great deal in common.
I’d not noticed the mention “your comment is awaiting moderation” before. May have missed that but - then - you might have started filtering the contributions in order to protect your site as a place for civilised conversation. I guess I understand. Good bye and good luck, from Berna
Ta Ta
Salam,
thanks for the article and the comments. As I am a German and a Muslim I feel like I would like to contribute to the discussion.
Culture always breaks religion. As a matter of fact many countries today Muslim are in a terrible state and that is not only due to mismanagement or Islam but due to history, colonization, corrupt leaders (many corrupted by western governments or business) and a lack of education. Please do not forget that people all over this world through entire history got killed for fear, frustration and anger in the name of religion.
Is Islam violent or not? Is Christian religion violent or not? What’s with Buddhism? Are fighting peace loving Americans extremist Muslims?
From a spiritual point of view these questions are irrelevant. Neither Muslims, nor Christians, nor Buddhists or Americans are generally peace loving or extreme. The history of the west shows us an extreme prepairndes to use violence to achieve its goals (e.g. Iran 1953, three Iraq wars, Afghanistan, slave trade, witch burning), same applies for Buddhist (see Thailand), Muslims (e.g. expansion to Persia) and every other human being. All of this is generated by fear and the feeling of loss of control. Every major religion can be abused for bad and used for good at the same time. The same script was used to justify slavery and to introduce social welfare.
One can only change himself and through this others.
Allah-Hafiz,
Amin
Thank you, Amin: beautifully said (in my opinion, of course).
Berna
I do have to say that this is certainly one of the most respectful string of posts I ever come across. That having been said, while we’re pontificating on whether the problem is with a passive silent majority or fascism, the root cause for the article in question continues spreading through the fertile soil of today’s world like dendrites through our collective brain. The important thing to remember is that Islam’s primary objective, stated many times throughout the Quran, is to rule the world, to the absolute exclusion of anything else. There is no disagreement with regard to that. The question then becomes whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing.
With regard to the Germans (and I am blue-eyed and blond of German extraction), there was one British subject who clearly saw what was coming, tried to warn his countrymen, and was dismissed as an extremist and a warmonger. Once the war was a reality for the British, it was Winston Spencer Churchill who was called upon to save them all. And he did. Of course as soon as he had done the job, he was again dismissed as an extremist.
Sir Winston Churchill was a correspondent who covered the wars in northern Africa as a young man. In 1899, he wrote a book entitled ‘The River War’. I have included a brief quote from it in the hope that it might clarify your feelings on the root topic of our discussion:
“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property (either as a child, a wife, or a concubine) must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.
No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science (the science against which it had vainly struggled) the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.”
Winston Spencer Churchill, The River War,
First edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50
(London: Longmans, Green & Co., published in 1899).
Churchill stated that Islam “above all others (religions) was founded and propagated by the sword,” providing “incentives to slaughter, and in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men — filled with a wild, merciless fanaticism.”
And by the way Amin, you must know that the slave traders who sold the African slaves to America were followers of Muhammad. After all, slave ownership and sales was a great source of income to Muhammad and his followers.
I tend to compare followers of Islam to drinkers of alcohol.
If you drink alcohol and then drive, the chances of you being involved in an accident are much greater than if you had not drunk the alcohol. Should anyone be killed in that accident, then certainly it is arguable that alcohol played a role in that death.
If you follow Islam and are true to its real message, the chance that you will be involved with actions that will lead to the deaths of others is greatly increased. It is arguable that Islam will have been the proximate cause of those deaths. That would be no surprise to intellectually honest readers.
With no intent to absolve the individual for whatever actions they make take, alcohol and Islam take many innocent lives each year. We despise the alcoholic for killing others while driving drunk, but if he had not been drinking alcohol, it is likely the accident would not have occurred. We view alcoholism as a disease, with alcohol being the causative pathogen, combined with an unfortunate human propensity to become addicted to it.
Islam is the causative pathogen for most of the violence we see in the world today. If you wish to divert yourself from that fact by pointing out deplorable instances of non-Islamic aggression such as Russia’s invasion of Georgia, or even America’s invasion of Iraq, knock yourself out. Having a conversation with you about Islam would be impossible.
You may have noticed that I have refrained from using the word Muslim. That is because I do not see Muslims as the problem. To be sure, it is Muslims who carry out self-detonating bomb attacks all over the world - and no one else. but it is only because they are under the influence of Islam and are drunk from the evil of its teachings. But, they are only following Muhammad’s example. AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM: ISLAM. Period.
It is amazing how Islam has been creeping into societies around the world. The problem I am struggling with is how does the rest of the world keep islam from increasing in numbers. It just seems impossible. So many intelligent people on this site have made many bright observations and continue to educate themselves on the topic, but have no answers, no strategy to help the situation at hand. Our governments are trying through war efforts, but people are angry with that (granted, the US has taken some detours, like leaving Afghanistan before the job was done etc…etc.., but we can argue this war and others all day). So what is the tact to take to stop islam’s force. I have family members who have fought long and hard for our country. They are proud, tired and see a very scary situation that is very out of control. I don’t see how we can stop this situation without force. I don’t know anyone who likes war. My family members who are out there serving hate the war, but don’t see any other way to stop Islam. The people of Islam are a waring people. I would love to see some answers other than pontificating about the past and how it didn’t work and how war is not the answer. Then what will work….
Hi,
Yes, Demi, I also appreciate the civil tone of this discussion and hope it will continue. It’s discouraging to discuss anything with a ranter.
Now, I like to play with words so I played around with Demi’s quotation from Winston Churchill. First, may I recall that he was not exactly a modern sort of thinker but rather more a typical exponent of British colonialism and not exactly known for a respectful opinion of “inferiors” (including Yanks) and that his article is pretty typical of the mindset of a time when Christianity was pretty single-minded about wanting to dominate the world and converting the heathens.
Anyway, I took the quotation and replaced the the words “mohamedans/islam” with “christians/christianity” and got a text that could have been written by the monks of the Inquisition, McCarthy on communism or even some Christian missionaries (cf. “The Poisonwood Bible” by the daughter of missionaries who were true Christians.)
It’s positively astonishing how much hatred people who claim to take inspiration from Jesus can spew out and how far fanatism can take the “crazies” among them (e.g. murder of doctors who perform abortions; lynching, ostracism). I think Amin’s got it right: fundamentalism is not the prerogative of any religion and all religions have their own “crazies”, i.e. fundamentalists. Theirs immolate themselves to kill Americans or Israelis; ours have other tricks (e.g. go out and shoot doctors who perform abortions, patrol the Mexican border in hope of shooting a wetback, etc.)
In another experiment, I used the words “capitalism/democracy” and got a pretty good “translation” of the foreign policy of the current administration of the USA. Ooops. Self-rightousness and a tendency to want to impose one’s ideas may not be confined to religion. No surprise but the exercise does reveal the similarity of all forms of self-righteousness.
Why am I so persistent in refuting arguments that pack a whole category into an indiscriminant package? Well, I worked for three years in a country that was torn apart by inter-ethnic hatred (Yugoslavia). Every group bad-talked all the others but I thought it was “just talk”. I was wrong. After losing friends through death and/or disdain because I refused to take their side against the others, I have no patience with any expressions of intolerance, hatred or violence of any kind. I, personally, am not a believer in any religion but I cannot help remembering that Jesus said pretty much the same thing: it’s astonishing to see how many so-called Christians are so ready to hate “in his name !!!”.
Heather reproaches us for not proposing solutions. Personally, I’m not a big-shot politician nor even a high-level thinker, so I honestly don’t have a solution that will settle the problem once and for all. However, hatred, war and violence has only generated more of the same: really and truly is “stopping Islam” an acceptable goal? Whyeverfor? Like us, they have a large majority that is peaceful and a small but highly visible minority that is not. I think Amin is right: We, the little people should not be so fearful of “others” (the bogeyman); we should try to change ourselves and hope that others will follow suit. If enough of us speak up for peaceful approaches, we might even be able to get leaders who place emphasis on dialogue, even with the devil. Not talking with those others is a sure way to hell, namely war. Two hundred years ago, when the latest military technology was the single-shot flintlock rifle, rebels could hope to prevail. No more: it’s stalemate.
Berna
PS: I seem to be the only one who’s using this site as a discussion venue. I wonder why. I’m a bit disappointed because this is the only intelligent site I’ve found so far (but I’m new to this sort of fun).
outsider 19 August 2008
Isn’t it sad, that we all kill each other for our country for or religion in the name of God( how mad is that)?!All these different cultures, religions, dogmas separate and divide us which causes conflict between nations and war.By exploiting, controlling other countries and killing them in war will never bring us lasting peace.If we were all fair, respectful,decent people we wouldn’t have any wars period!!! But human nature is violent,ruthless, controlling and selfish.We don’t have love for other people(only hate)if they don,t think like us or if they belong to another race or religion or if they’re different.It’s so crazy so sad!
Why nobody in the world standing up and help the Tibetans against the Chinese occupation?!
Why the Palestinians don’t have basic human rights in their own country even today?!!!
( How about 1948 when the Jews took over Palestine with terror?!!!!)
How about the nice Christians why didn’t they speak up against Bush and his government before he started the war in Iraq on the base on lies.The US had no right to go there what so ever!
( The Muslims could say that too.)
How many people have died since…. Iraqis, Americans, and others…?How about the poor soldiers who got killed or messed up physically and mentally so they can’t have a job and they ending up homeless on the streets? (Makes me cry when ever I see it on TV.)Yesterday I’ve seen it on the news that many of these soldier’s wife’s have to go to the food bank, because they don’t have enough money to get by, to get enough food.
Top of that Bush and other politicians have a face to talk about honor,fighting for freedom, die for your country NONSENSE!!!!( Why don’t they send their own kids to Iraq to the front line, bet if that was the case there would be no war.)I wouldn’t ever want my son to die for any country or anything!!! I can’t understand people I’ve seen on the news sometimes when they say they’re proud of their son or daughter who died in Iraq.How could they say that?!!! If you really love your kids you wouldn’t EVER want them to die for ANYTHING!!!!
Now on the news they talking about that the Israelis want to drop a bomb on Iran too before Bush leaves office.
Meanwhile months ago the CIA said, that they haven’t found any sign or capability in Iran that they could or would be able to build a nuclear bomb.
How much right the US or Israel has to mess up Iran too?!!!
After we’ll wonder why the fanatics want to kill us all.
How about China some manufacturers put poisonous chemical( the same as in the pet food last year)even in the baby food so they could get more money, but many baby died or got sick! How ABSURD is that?!!! Some other manufacturers also in China sold poison as glycerin and a company in South America who bought it made some cough syrup from it and many people have died. Don’t these people have any CONSCIENCE?!!!! What is wrong with the world?!
I’m really wondering sometimes who are the real terrorist here?
The Christians have killed more people than any other religion in the world.So we can’t complain can we?
Why we always point the finger at the other one instead of honestly look at the facts,look at ourselves and see our own ugliness, cruelty, unfairness?! Maybe then we would be able to talk to the other side, to the so called”enemy” and just maybe we would be able to work out our differences with each other peacefully without any war or killing.
Wouldn’t it be NICE…..?
PS.The Observer made a great comment!
Berna, you are a high level thinker. You do have ideas. You do not have to be a big-shot politician to make things happen in this country. That is why I love America. This blog is America. Places like this is where ideas become real. I do not mean to reproach anyone. I am looking for answers. Intelligent answers are what our government needs. Rhetoric is common, answers are few. Religion is a vehicle once again to power. Yes, outsider it would be nice to be tolerant of others differences and be peaceful, I think that is called Eutopia. To bad the fanatic islamists didn’t think about being peaceful around 9/11/2001. OK…. so back to the question…… how do you keep the fanatical religious peaceful…whatever religion they are? Embargo, drill our own oil?
Hi Heather
How about helping them to help themselves? So that they can put food into the stomachs of their children and have a bit left over to buy them some clothes, pay for health care and education, be able to take a holiday once in a while: all those things that we in the developed world tend to take for granted (and that we may be in the process of losing).
History has shown time and time again that aggressive acts like war and embargoes that create shortages of basic goods for the poor have systematically bred anger, retaliation and desperation, and desperate people will do desperate things. Theodore Roosevelt’s not one of my favourite historical characters but even he felt that carrots were just as important as sticks. The rebuilding work in Irak has remained on the back burner since the start and people are sick and tired of the empty promises.
Drill our own oil? Why not? But it’ll take at least ten years for the new wells to come on stream and there are many little ways we can reduce our level of dependence, like turning off the lights in rooms we’re not occupying, using low-consumption bulbs, replacing power-hungry appliances, keeping our electricals in good repair, turning the TV and such-like off instead of keeping them on stand-by, etc. My own power bill is about 10% less a month since I started doing a bit of that and I’m eagerly expecting the power company to send a technician around to verify my meter. (hee hee)Every little bit counts on the consumption side but we could also try to put some pressure on the power companies to become more efficient: their existing systems leak power left right and centre and that’s my idea of a national emergency.
People laughed at Obama for saying that ordinary people could lower their gas consumption by keeping tyre pressures at optimal levels but its true and and there are huge savings to be made by walking to the corner store and using a caddy to truck the stuff back home (admittedly only for city folk). More walking can reduce our need to pay for a gym in order to get some exercise. If we did a bit more of that sort of thing, we might not need to go to war for oil or even drill more wells to clutter up our sea-scapes. And, if we’ve got to have clutter, I’ll vote for windmills: watching the blades go round and round is very “Zen”.
Berna
See Berna….you have answers….We have it in us to help. This world is full of rich people like us(the rich at heart) and the people who want to be at the heart of America. We do tolerate all who enter our home. We do not tolerate those who will harm us. My wish is to hear more of how we can help and how we can continue to bring those “peaceful” arms to our country. The armament that will allow us to stand firm and strong when we need to keep our economies within the boundaries of freedom and peace.
My family believes in helping others. I believe it starts here. Do you know how many families here in America need our help? We tend to go outside our borders, but there are millions that barely can survive on the minimum our country provides. I have adopted a family who has walked here to America from El Salvador. They are so grateful and loving. My children love them and I am grateful they are in our lives as they remind me of how great we have it here.
I am afraid of the ISLAM fanatics…they are crazy. One of my best friends from Turkey is Muslim. She is afraid of them. We all should be afraid of the Muhammad followers of Islam. Don’t let them tell you they are peaceful….if they are followers of this teaching they hate you….they hate everyone who is not Islam. People who don’t see this are blind and have know idea of the world. I have lived all over the world and have seen it all. Muslims are not a bad people, but the followers of Islam are VERY scary people. They do not tolerate anyone on this earth but their own.
So back to you…..I would like to see the US get more windmills going (yes, they are graceful) . It is a great source of power and beautiful. I like the idea of drilling. It is far off, but we need to start now. Our country also has so much natural gas (and I am not talking about congress) I lived in upstate NY for many years, and you could smell it in the water. Our country needs to be more resourceful. Between us and Canada there is a lot that we can do to keep ourselves from having to depend on other sources of power.
Please hug a soldier or thank them when you see one, as it is our only line of defense at this time. The soldiers in this country are trying to do what they feel is best to keep us and their families out of harms way. Not only their work overseas, but could you imagine how many more planes that could have been bombed if we didn’t have those horrible lines in the airport. Thank God for the military who has been on the planes as marshall to ensure they are safe. Thank the military for undercover ops in our subways…NYC, DC, MA..etc. I know of the things that our guys have done to keep us safe here at home. The world is a very troubled place. Be kind to our men who keep you safe. They are the good guys….they are the ones who allow us to have blogs likes this and keep America free…..and yes, some of them are Muslim.
Observer and Outsider….why do you hate the Jews so much? Did they do something to you personally? Do you believe the World Trade Center was actually bombed, or a mistake by the pilot?
outsider 22 September 2008
Hi Heather,
First of all, I wish there weren’t any fanatics or terrorists anywhere in the world !
Have anybody ever asked why the terrorists kill innocent people?( You could say they crazy, but it’s much more than that.) What makes them go so far?!Don’t you think something is wrong when people rather die or kill, because there’s no hope for them ? Why don’t we ask them and talk to them face to face like real human beings before they get to the boiling point?
If we were always so good, and fair, and decent with everybody in the world, you really think we would have any terrorist?
…..how do you keep the fanatical religious peaceful….
I don’t know, but I have an idea…by being peaceful, decent and fair and respectful with them in the first place…and with LOVE that’s the only way, not war.
If we want to change the world, we have to start with ourselves one by one.
Why do you come up with the assumption that I hate Jews just, because I’m talking about the pure FACTS?!You can read it in books, on websites ….
I don’t hate the Jews ( personally I don’t know any)but I hate what they do to the Palestinians even today, and everyday…The first time in 2006 when Israel unjustly started a war in Lebanon and have killed so many innocent people it cut my attention what’s going on.Then I red a book which has really opened my eyes…The ETHNIC CLEANSING of PALESTINE ILAN PAPPE ( ‘Ilan Pappe is Israel’s bravest, most principled, most incisive historian.John Pilger)He has many other books also.
I have found a few very informative websites http://www.betterworldlinks.org http://www.amnesty.org http://www.ifamericansknew.org http://www. btselem.org/english
In 2006 I’ve seen many wonderful Jewish people writers, Rabi,on TV who stood up and talked against the war in Lebanon.It was really nice to see that.
I believe the Americans are the greatest Nation in the world!I love the American people they’re awesome, helpful, ingenious, brave,giving,loving and so on…But I don’t like the government right now they’re messing up the whole country and I see how much this hurts the people!
PS. A few good books to read: Imperial Reckoning The Untold Story of Britain’s Gulag in Kenya by Caroline Elkins (How inhuman the English can be.)
Jiddu Krishnamurti: Freedom From The Known or any of his Wonderful books is worth to read.
There is no such thing as a “moderate Muslim”. Proof of this is in the fact that ALL muslims study from the same book, the Koran. There is to be no personal interpretation of the Koran, it is the law, and cannot be disobeyed by any muslim. Those that keep quiet would be at the head of the pact in any conflict with Infidels. The Koran specifically instructs muslims to rule world BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY. This is not about religion, religion is the vehicle by which the ruling class, the clergy, gain control over the masses, and the power that goes with it.
Make no mistake about it, this “religion” endangers the entire Infidel world.
Bill Mangum
Decatur, GA
Sorry, Bill, but this seems to be a case of the mote the beam (the former in that other guy’s eye and latter in our own)
Christians also study from a single book (the Mormons simply add a complementary book) and there are adepts of both religions who believe in the “literal truth of the Bible and would kill to prove their point. Moderate Muslims - just like moderate Christians, Mormons and Jews - say that the invitations to holy wars in their holy books are to be interpreted as providing a good example that others will want to follow.
Christianity, in particular, has been pretty war-like in the past yet I know a lot of moderate Christians, moderate Muslims and moderate Jews. As Amin said, no religion has a monopoly on violence or fundamentalism.
Here’s an exercise that teachers should set for their students: put yourself in the shoes of a mother in Iraq after a night-time “visit” by huge, shouting and heavily armed men, most of whom are Christian. Wouldn’t you think it was Christianity that was “dangerous”? Beating somebody to a pulp is not conducive to friendship and understanding: it only fosters more hatred, resentment and desperation and the weaker elements will not commit suicide by fighting “properly”. The Americans didn’t when they were fighting against the British.
Heather: Last night, Fox news gave us yet another way to reduce gas consumption: fat Americans should lose weight so that the cars they drive or ride in will be lighter and hence less greedy for gas. Hoooorah! That sounds a lot sillier than keeping optimal tire pressures but, then, every little bit counts. No mention of buying smaller, less greedy cars.
Coming to this a bit late. I received an email with a story attributed to Emanuel Tanay; as with all such emails, I immediately searched to see if it was true. That search brought me here. I’d like to offer a couple points.
1. Any group claiming that its religion is the one true religion representing the one true God is wrong. Why? Because to make such a claim is to pretend to know God’s will, and only God knows God’s will.
2. Look at the USA. Use satellite views, bird’s-eye views and worm’s views. Set aside any political leanings you may have. If you are honest, you will see a significant parallel between today’s USA and inter-war Germany. You will see that most Americans are peaceful people wanting to put something up for their golden years and to leave something for their children to build upon. You will also find more and more governments that are their own means and ends, that become less and less responsive to the people, that insist ever strongly that they know what’s best for the people. And you will also find a very large silent majority among the people who are ‘too busy with their lives’ to stand up for what is right and to denounce what is wrong.
The peaceful majority has always been irrelevant throughout all of time. And, as has been true all along, they won’t notice their lost liberties and freedoms until it’s too late. It has happened before and it will happen again. Perhaps now it is the USA’s turn to fall into totalitarianism. I’ll give it 20 years.